This will be a topic discussed at the McKenzie Towne Community Association meeting on Wednesday, November 14 at 7:00pm located in the McKenzie Towne Hall.
This revision to the roundabout is atrocious. Altering the design to reduce crossover while exiting from the inside lane, is less to increase safety of the circle but more to accomodate those who do not know how to correctly navigate a roundabout. If people were using it correctly in the original design conditions: inside lane only for proceeding more than one leg to exit, outside lane no more than two exits, yeild to those in the circle, yeild to exiting cars from the inside lane, exit the circle out into the appropriate lane of each leg, the circle would be safer. I find this new configuration very confusing and contravening to the typical design requirements of a roundabout. Biggest example of this is the painted bumpout at the McKenzie Towne Blvd West leg. You navigate the circle from the inside lane prior to the bumpout, being pushed into the outside lane at the bumpout and then staying in that lane for two more exits when you finally leave. Since the revision was only painted on and not using curbs, I imagine that this is only in a testing period, with curbs to ultimately occur. What I do not understand is why it was introduced in the winter. Snow is going to cover all of the paint, and the circle will be used as its always been. It is also very awkward to go around the bumpout at McKenzietowne Blvd East, as you are now driving in an ellipse rather than a curve. The excessive steering changes combined with the crossfall of the road makes it uncomfortable. I also feel that it was a fail on the part of the City to introduce this painting and only then release this HowTo a week afterwards. I thought I had figured out the modifications after looking at it in the daylight, but reading your descriptions above, I realize I still had a couple things incorrect. Based on my work hours, and this time of year, I am using the roundabout in the dark to leave and in the dark to return home. It is not easy to comprehend in the dark. On the whole, I think this could have been dealt with so much more appropriately.
This is NOT acceptable. Who in their right mind would come to the conclusion that a design needs to be made MORE confusing when the outcry before was that people couldn't figure out the simpler traffic circle? When people were crying out for markings, they were looking for something that matched how the circle was already being used, not for a re-engineering of how it could possibly be made 'better'.
In addition to these changes, it needs to be clearly noted that all the exits are not two lanes anymore. I realize they aren't currently painted to be two lanes, but NONE of the exits were painted for years. THAT is a big part of the confusion. We've all been using the circle as two lanes in, two lanes out. If the issue was that it was only recently realized that the mouth of the exit into Prestwick (and others) was just a little shy of enough space to accommodate 2 lanes, THEN CHANGE THE EXITS. 2 lanes were working beautifully.
The issues before were people exiting into the WRONG lane from their place in the circle. The inner circle lane should have been exiting into the lane on the left, outer circle into the right. THAT WAS THE PROBLEM. Well, that and people who thought the circle itself was one lane, or people who don’t understand yielding.
I would have to agree with the comment above - this should have been communicated before the paint, not after and not in the winter when the most traffic hit it when it's dark out and the snow covers the lines. I like the original way - I dont want to have to remember which entrances mean I can exit in 1, 2 or 3 exits. And signal lights ppl - USE THEM. I cant yield if I dont know you're coming!
Comment from AC above has the problem bang-on...it was how people were exiting and not keeping to their lane. Until your description, I could only assume the new lines were forcing me to exit from the inner lane to the curb lane when I exit at Inverness Gate - however, I could have experienced an accident every time I did that if I wasn't careful.
The City needs to send people out to monitor this circle immediately and determine whether (or likely not) this circle is working efficiently now.
If people couldn't figure out the 2-3 sentences of traffic circle rules in the drivers' handbook, I'm not sure they're going to figure out the 3 pages that were posted on this site.
HOPEFULLY this will finally resolve people in the left hand lane thinking that I (a right lane driver) is somehow breaking the law by navigating the circle from the right lane. I've had various hand signals (I'm sure you know the one), honking, and various other complaints (non-yielding cars trying to enter the circle in front of me, vehicles transitioning lanes from left to right while exiting the circle without regard to my presence), but I have my doubts...
It will probably mean that if I follow the signs and the new lines (which are now covered by snow) that someone is going to side-swipe me, either by failing to exit when forced, or by exiting the circle from the left lane when this isn't permitted per the new guidelines...
LilRedFocus: as long as you previously were not navigating the circle more than two legs from the right lane, you were totally legit. If you were going farther than that, it is recommended to take the left lane. Otherwise, it just causes many more points of conflict and stress on yourself. My biggest peeve before was those who would exit from left into the right lane, like you mentioned. It would have been so much better off if people were just educated in proper roundabout etiquette rather than the City making some sort of wonky hybrid that if it actually works, it will just teach people how to use the McTowne circle and not how to use one anywhere else.
Mr. Keating, can you please provide comment for us?
Agreed! They should have painted the proper roundabout lines, instead of the randomness that they did. Mr. Keating, please comment on the dangerous change to the roundabout!
As per the guidelines, I do not travel past the 2nd exit, essentially I am traveling "Straight through", from Mackenzie Gate on my way to Deerfoot on-ramps. =)
Recently I had found the circle less problematic, since the people on my left haven't honked at me at all, I only hope that they KEEP the nice white signs that illustrate that both the left and right lanes can travel to the 2nd exit.
I cannot begin to tell you HOW MANY PEOPLE have tried to convince me that "You have to exit at the first opportunity" for cars entering on the right lane...
Please, let's all pray that the people that were confused before the rule changes now understand that this is not the case, that me and my family are just "going to the 2nd exit" and not to mind us, I promise I'm not going to cut you off, and I ALWAYS use my signals to indicate my plan to pass the first turn, and signal "right" after passing it, to show that I'm exiting.
If they wanted to increase confusion in the roundabout, then they've done a fantastic job. I can see the roundabout from my house. There have been more close calls (almost accidents) since the lines went up, than in the last 2 years I've lived here. This is a dangerous change. Instead of painting random forced merge meridians (without signage!), they should have painted the proper roundabout lines. Leave the new signs, those are nice. But get rid of those absolutely dangerous forced meridians!!! Who are the idiots that think this makes the round about safer?!!!
The problem at the traffic circle is that people do not exit into the proper lane, and so when I heard they were painting the traffic circle I thought it would be to draw a few dotted white lines to let people know that there are 2 lanes, essentially a dual turn.
This picture is what I thought (and hoped) would be painted: http://www.tc.gc.ca/media/images/roadsafety/tp15085e_img1_large.jpg
Turning the traffic circle into a weird "traffic oval" is not helpful to anyone; the curbs do nothing to help people use the traffic circle properly, especially in the winter.
I appreciate that the city wants to make our commute more enjoyable. However, I do not approve of the way it was attempted. As such; I agree with the previous threads. I find it insulting to those of us who know how to properly use a traffic circle. I feel bad for people who are not from McKenzie Towne and have not been educated on this new procedure as I am sure they are to cause an accident by assuming they can travel this circle as outlined in the Alberta Drivers Handbook on page #72. In addition to the general confusion caused by this, I am certain it will cause basic accidents in the winter and not only due to the confusion of driving it. I was witness to two vehicles spinning in a 360 due to the oval shape. I was almost victim of this myself when I approached one of the painted barriers. This may have been my fault though, for not studying the new procedures of driving the circle. I had no idea that a traffic circle would be like the English language, where there are more exceptions than there are consistencies. Perhaps when we adopt a European traffic design, we should also adopt a European Traffic Engineer to place the signage and paint lines.
Building a roundabout like the one in McKenzie is not rocket science! The one in Paris at the Arc de Triomphe has 8 lanes, 12 roads that connect, and it works.
But our Calgarian traffic engineers are famous for their incompetence (ring road, public transit, and many more problems) There are some smart people out there who have figured out already how a 2-lane traffic circle works (see the driver's handbook or the diagram linked by Krystle Spielman). Why do our engineers try to re-invent the wheel and make it oval? Stick to the law!
This really is very simple to understand once you get the hang of it. Motorists in the UK, Australia, New Zealand and other countries have been using these for decades, and when a 4 way stop can no longer accommodate an increase in traffic and lights would just be a hindrance, you will be thankful you learned how to use a roundabout. I agree that this one seems particularly confusing to look at but given practice I'm sure you'll come to love it.
This new way to navigate the circle is very confusing. Sometimes the painted medians push you in the right lane and you are asked to go back in the left lane, and sometimes you are asked to stay in the right lane.
I would just as well keep navigating it the old way and drive over the painted lines, while driving for everybody at the same time else while going around.
I agree with the above comment on the difficulty of driving around an ellipse, especially because the lanes already lean towards the outside (for proper drainage I guess), and tires don't get much traction because of this. The tight ellipse corners make this even worse.
This solution looks a lot like something that came out of a computer simulation in some engineer's office, with no or very little feasibility study on the ground itself.
In a way I'm glad they did this just before winter, the new painted medians are almost worn off already.
What a disaster this has become. The traffic circle used to run relatively smoothly with only the occasional driver who was unsure how to navigate it. It's now a constant hazard because NO ONE knows how to use it; some are following the new guidelines (giving those in the right/outside lanes the right of way), some drivers are following the laws regarding traffic circles (giving those in the left/inside lane the right of way) and it's a gigantic mess. The new yellow lines/blockages are covered by snow; the signage is unclear at best. The fact that there was no preemptive warnings or education on the changes being made is a joke.
Mr. Keating, if this is your legacy as Alderman, I hope you enjoy your one and only term.
I feel I been able to accomplish a great deal for the benefit of Ward 12 residents. If you feel that this design by City engineers negates all that has been accomplished in my term so far then I respect that it is your democratic right to do so.
Thank you to those who have taken the time to offer their comments, questions and concerns regarding the recent line painting changes.
Over the last 2 years I have received weekly requests to paint lines on the McKenzie Towne Round about. I requested several times to the roads department to paint lines. When they finally agreed to do so, I was informed on Thursday November 01 2012 of the design they intended to implement (3 days before scheduled painting). You must understand that this was not my design but rather the engineers plan, which they felt was the best for safety and traffic flow. I can understand the logic behind their design however, its effectiveness has yet to be determined and will be monitored during the implementation phase. If Roads determines that changes are required this will not happen until the construction season of Spring 2013.
I would like to once again extend an invitation to discuss this further at the McKenzie Towne Community Association meeting on November 14, 2012 at 7:00pm in the McKenzie Towne Hall.
The circle definitely needed to be painted (why this didn't happen at its creation is anyone's guess) but this hybrid 1-lane/2-lane version is bad design.
It seems that there is a pretty common standard for how these 2-lane traffic circles are supposed to work. There is an incredible selection of resources and studies that have been done on them. You were quoted in the Calgary Herald saying that there are "no national standards" for traffic circles. A 15-minute search on the old internet shows that it's pretty standardized in US and Canada (Edmonton has 2-lane traffic circles that are painted correctly) AND the layout and rules are in our Alberta Driving Handbook! Even if it aren't NATIONAL standards why would something new be created when there are plenty of reasons to follow the more common system?
How to use a roundabout in various places in North America: http://www.th.gov.bc.ca/roundabouts/index.html (Describes a 2-lane BC roundabout with full markings and animation!) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roundabout (links to almost everything you could want to know about roundabouts around the world and their design. I have yet to see a "standard" that doesn't follow the 2-lane system in our Alberta Driving Handbook.) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONacAiKXe-8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MywmtskFiiI http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/safety/roundabouts/ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-5jpbaH6CY (highest volume 2-lane traffic circle in the US. Looks and operates exactly like a 2-lane traffic circle should.)
Alberta Drivers Handbook: http://www.transportation.alberta.ca/content/docType45/Production/Basicdrivershandbook2010.pdf (see page 72)
One serious flaw with having an asymmetric traffic circle is that we have snow covering the road for a good portion of the year. Imagine now you could actually have someone who knows what they are doing (has read their Drivers Handbook) and can now cause an accident without doing anything wrong because the traffic circle paint is inconsistent. On top of that we have a circle where the ruleset for navigating the circle change depending on where you enter it. And forced lane changes while navigating the roundabout? The original asphalt and meridian layout was not designed for this. Such bad design and I would argue more dangerous than no lines. I could go on about why the layout of the asphalt doesn't fit the system that is put there but I'm not the Traffic Design Engineer. There is plenty of research and design guidelines to be found after a quick search on the internet.
You say you can "understand the logic behind their design." I wish I could come up with any logical reason for doing things this way but it's overwhelmingly absurd.
I can't make the meeting tonight but I'm sure there will be enough intelligent people there to fix this thing. It's quite clear from these posts that the majority of people who use the circle could figure out the proper design.
Spring of 2013 to paint some new lines? A community association meeting to discuss a traffic circle? That seems like a ridiculous amount of time to monitor this terrible idea and an uneccessary waste of a Wednesday night. As a person who uses this traffic circle daily as well as has used traffic circles in other cities daily, this is the worst design i have ever seen. Why over complicate something so simple? and why will it take SIX months minimum to fix a mistake. Let's prove that the city wheels can move at a reasonable pace and get this fixed ASAP.
If safety is a concern I can understand why the traffic engineers may have been assigned this project. I trust that the data collected from the studies is extensive and correct. I also don't doubt that the new design has the potential to increase the efficiency of the circle. However, there is one major flaw when running computer simulations. Computers will not be driving the circle, people will.
There was a gentleman at the meeting who said KIS (keep it simple). This is how traffic laws should be.
Apparently there is a larger problem that the province needs to know about, if it is true that the province is revising the standards of creating Roundabouts. However, for me (us), this is the first battle. Let's not discredit all the hard work our drivers educators have provided in the past on the education of properly navigating a roundabout. And if we do, let's see the government pay for the reeducation of our drivers as it seemed like we needed two traffic engineers, a community association member, and a city alderman to explain the change to a room of previously educated drivers. Whereas it took a drawing from a 5 year old and one sentence to accurately and effectively explain the old rules. Mr. Keating, you are our voice and action. I understand that you may have seen this as the best solution when the project passed your desk and I don't blame you for accepting it. However, this is the voice of your people and I hope you receive sufficient support/concern over this issue to properly rectify it in a timely fashion.
This revision to the roundabout is atrocious. Altering the design to reduce crossover while exiting from the inside lane, is less to increase safety of the circle but more to accomodate those who do not know how to correctly navigate a roundabout. If people were using it correctly in the original design conditions: inside lane only for proceeding more than one leg to exit, outside lane no more than two exits, yeild to those in the circle, yeild to exiting cars from the inside lane, exit the circle out into the appropriate lane of each leg, the circle would be safer. I find this new configuration very confusing and contravening to the typical design requirements of a roundabout. Biggest example of this is the painted bumpout at the McKenzie Towne Blvd West leg. You navigate the circle from the inside lane prior to the bumpout, being pushed into the outside lane at the bumpout and then staying in that lane for two more exits when you finally leave. Since the revision was only painted on and not using curbs, I imagine that this is only in a testing period, with curbs to ultimately occur. What I do not understand is why it was introduced in the winter. Snow is going to cover all of the paint, and the circle will be used as its always been. It is also very awkward to go around the bumpout at McKenzietowne Blvd East, as you are now driving in an ellipse rather than a curve. The excessive steering changes combined with the crossfall of the road makes it uncomfortable.
ReplyDeleteI also feel that it was a fail on the part of the City to introduce this painting and only then release this HowTo a week afterwards. I thought I had figured out the modifications after looking at it in the daylight, but reading your descriptions above, I realize I still had a couple things incorrect. Based on my work hours, and this time of year, I am using the roundabout in the dark to leave and in the dark to return home. It is not easy to comprehend in the dark.
On the whole, I think this could have been dealt with so much more appropriately.
This is NOT acceptable. Who in their right mind would come to the conclusion that a design needs to be made MORE confusing when the outcry before was that people couldn't figure out the simpler traffic circle? When people were crying out for markings, they were looking for something that matched how the circle was already being used, not for a re-engineering of how it could possibly be made 'better'.
ReplyDeleteIn addition to these changes, it needs to be clearly noted that all the exits are not two lanes anymore. I realize they aren't currently painted to be two lanes, but NONE of the exits were painted for years. THAT is a big part of the confusion. We've all been using the circle as two lanes in, two lanes out. If the issue was that it was only recently realized that the mouth of the exit into Prestwick (and others) was just a little shy of enough space to accommodate 2 lanes, THEN CHANGE THE EXITS. 2 lanes were working beautifully.
The issues before were people exiting into the WRONG lane from their place in the circle. The inner circle lane should have been exiting into the lane on the left, outer circle into the right. THAT WAS THE PROBLEM. Well, that and people who thought the circle itself was one lane, or people who don’t understand yielding.
This is ridiculous.
I would have to agree with the comment above - this should have been communicated before the paint, not after and not in the winter when the most traffic hit it when it's dark out and the snow covers the lines. I like the original way - I dont want to have to remember which entrances mean I can exit in 1, 2 or 3 exits.
ReplyDeleteAnd signal lights ppl - USE THEM. I cant yield if I dont know you're coming!
Comment from AC above has the problem bang-on...it was how people were exiting and not keeping to their lane. Until your description, I could only assume the new lines were forcing me to exit from the inner lane to the curb lane when I exit at Inverness Gate - however, I could have experienced an accident every time I did that if I wasn't careful.
ReplyDeleteThe City needs to send people out to monitor this circle immediately and determine whether (or likely not) this circle is working efficiently now.
If people couldn't figure out the 2-3 sentences of traffic circle rules in the drivers' handbook, I'm not sure they're going to figure out the 3 pages that were posted on this site.
HOPEFULLY this will finally resolve people in the left hand lane thinking that I (a right lane driver) is somehow breaking the law by navigating the circle from the right lane. I've had various hand signals (I'm sure you know the one), honking, and various other complaints (non-yielding cars trying to enter the circle in front of me, vehicles transitioning lanes from left to right while exiting the circle without regard to my presence), but I have my doubts...
ReplyDeleteIt will probably mean that if I follow the signs and the new lines (which are now covered by snow) that someone is going to side-swipe me, either by failing to exit when forced, or by exiting the circle from the left lane when this isn't permitted per the new guidelines...
LilRedFocus: as long as you previously were not navigating the circle more than two legs from the right lane, you were totally legit. If you were going farther than that, it is recommended to take the left lane. Otherwise, it just causes many more points of conflict and stress on yourself. My biggest peeve before was those who would exit from left into the right lane, like you mentioned.
ReplyDeleteIt would have been so much better off if people were just educated in proper roundabout etiquette rather than the City making some sort of wonky hybrid that if it actually works, it will just teach people how to use the McTowne circle and not how to use one anywhere else.
Mr. Keating, can you please provide comment for us?
Agreed! They should have painted the proper roundabout lines, instead of the randomness that they did. Mr. Keating, please comment on the dangerous change to the roundabout!
DeleteAs per the guidelines, I do not travel past the 2nd exit, essentially I am traveling "Straight through", from Mackenzie Gate on my way to Deerfoot on-ramps. =)
DeleteRecently I had found the circle less problematic, since the people on my left haven't honked at me at all, I only hope that they KEEP the nice white signs that illustrate that both the left and right lanes can travel to the 2nd exit.
I cannot begin to tell you HOW MANY PEOPLE have tried to convince me that "You have to exit at the first opportunity" for cars entering on the right lane...
Please, let's all pray that the people that were confused before the rule changes now understand that this is not the case, that me and my family are just "going to the 2nd exit" and not to mind us, I promise I'm not going to cut you off, and I ALWAYS use my signals to indicate my plan to pass the first turn, and signal "right" after passing it, to show that I'm exiting.
*prays to whoever will listen*
If they wanted to increase confusion in the roundabout, then they've done a fantastic job. I can see the roundabout from my house. There have been more close calls (almost accidents) since the lines went up, than in the last 2 years I've lived here. This is a dangerous change. Instead of painting random forced merge meridians (without signage!), they should have painted the proper roundabout lines. Leave the new signs, those are nice. But get rid of those absolutely dangerous forced meridians!!! Who are the idiots that think this makes the round about safer?!!!
ReplyDeleteThe problem at the traffic circle is that people do not exit into the proper lane, and so when I heard they were painting the traffic circle I thought it would be to draw a few dotted white lines to let people know that there are 2 lanes, essentially a dual turn.
ReplyDeleteThis picture is what I thought (and hoped) would be painted: http://www.tc.gc.ca/media/images/roadsafety/tp15085e_img1_large.jpg
Turning the traffic circle into a weird "traffic oval" is not helpful to anyone; the curbs do nothing to help people use the traffic circle properly, especially in the winter.
I appreciate that the city wants to make our commute more enjoyable. However, I do not approve of the way it was attempted.
ReplyDeleteAs such; I agree with the previous threads.
I find it insulting to those of us who know how to properly use a traffic circle. I feel bad for people who are not from McKenzie Towne and have not been educated on this new procedure as I am sure they are to cause an accident by assuming they can travel this circle as outlined in the Alberta Drivers Handbook on page #72.
In addition to the general confusion caused by this, I am certain it will cause basic accidents in the winter and not only due to the confusion of driving it. I was witness to two vehicles spinning in a 360 due to the oval shape. I was almost victim of this myself when I approached one of the painted barriers. This may have been my fault though, for not studying the new procedures of driving the circle. I had no idea that a traffic circle would be like the English language, where there are more exceptions than there are consistencies.
Perhaps when we adopt a European traffic design, we should also adopt a European Traffic Engineer to place the signage and paint lines.
Building a roundabout like the one in McKenzie is not rocket science! The one in Paris at the Arc de Triomphe has 8 lanes, 12 roads that connect, and it works.
ReplyDeleteBut our Calgarian traffic engineers are famous for their incompetence (ring road, public transit, and many more problems) There are some smart people out there who have figured out already how a 2-lane traffic circle works (see the driver's handbook or the diagram linked by Krystle Spielman). Why do our engineers try to re-invent the wheel and make it oval? Stick to the law!
This really is very simple to understand once you get the hang of it. Motorists in the UK, Australia, New Zealand and other countries have been using these for decades, and when a 4 way stop can no longer accommodate an increase in traffic and lights would just be a hindrance, you will be thankful you learned how to use a roundabout. I agree that this one seems particularly confusing to look at but given practice I'm sure you'll come to love it.
ReplyDeleteThis new way to navigate the circle is very confusing. Sometimes the painted medians push you in the right lane and you are asked to go back in the left lane, and sometimes you are asked to stay in the right lane.
ReplyDeleteI would just as well keep navigating it the old way and drive over the painted lines, while driving for everybody at the same time else while going around.
I agree with the above comment on the difficulty of driving around an ellipse, especially because the lanes already lean towards the outside (for proper drainage I guess), and tires don't get much traction because of this. The tight ellipse corners make this even worse.
This solution looks a lot like something that came out of a computer simulation in some engineer's office, with no or very little feasibility study on the ground itself.
In a way I'm glad they did this just before winter, the new painted medians are almost worn off already.
What a disaster this has become. The traffic circle used to run relatively smoothly with only the occasional driver who was unsure how to navigate it. It's now a constant hazard because NO ONE knows how to use it; some are following the new guidelines (giving those in the right/outside lanes the right of way), some drivers are following the laws regarding traffic circles (giving those in the left/inside lane the right of way) and it's a gigantic mess. The new yellow lines/blockages are covered by snow; the signage is unclear at best. The fact that there was no preemptive warnings or education on the changes being made is a joke.
ReplyDeleteMr. Keating, if this is your legacy as Alderman, I hope you enjoy your one and only term.
Ms/Mrs. Lane,
DeleteI feel I been able to accomplish a great deal for the benefit of Ward 12 residents.
If you feel that this design by City engineers negates all that has been accomplished in my term so far then I respect that it is your democratic right to do so.
Sincerely,
Alderman Keating
Thank you to those who have taken the time to offer their comments, questions and concerns regarding the recent line painting changes.
ReplyDeleteOver the last 2 years I have received weekly requests to paint lines on the McKenzie Towne Round about. I requested several times to the roads department to paint lines. When they finally agreed to do so, I was informed on Thursday November 01 2012 of the design they intended to implement (3 days before scheduled painting). You must understand that this was not my design but rather the engineers plan, which they felt was the best for safety and traffic flow. I can understand the logic behind their design however, its effectiveness has yet to be determined and will be monitored during the implementation phase. If Roads determines that changes are required this will not happen until the construction season of Spring 2013.
I would like to once again extend an invitation to discuss this further at the McKenzie Towne Community Association meeting on November 14, 2012 at 7:00pm in the McKenzie Towne Hall.
The circle definitely needed to be painted (why this didn't happen at its creation is anyone's guess) but this hybrid 1-lane/2-lane version is bad design.
ReplyDeleteIt seems that there is a pretty common standard for how these 2-lane traffic circles are supposed to work. There is an incredible selection of resources and studies that have been done on them. You were quoted in the Calgary Herald saying that there are "no national standards" for traffic circles. A 15-minute search on the old internet shows that it's pretty standardized in US and Canada (Edmonton has 2-lane traffic circles that are painted correctly) AND the layout and rules are in our Alberta Driving Handbook! Even if it aren't NATIONAL standards why would something new be created when there are plenty of reasons to follow the more common system?
How to use a roundabout in various places in North America:
http://www.th.gov.bc.ca/roundabouts/index.html (Describes a 2-lane BC roundabout with full markings and animation!)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roundabout (links to almost everything you could want to know about roundabouts around the world and their design. I have yet to see a "standard" that doesn't follow the 2-lane system in our Alberta Driving Handbook.)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONacAiKXe-8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MywmtskFiiI
http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/safety/roundabouts/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-5jpbaH6CY (highest volume 2-lane traffic circle in the US. Looks and operates exactly like a 2-lane traffic circle should.)
Alberta Drivers Handbook:
http://www.transportation.alberta.ca/content/docType45/Production/Basicdrivershandbook2010.pdf (see page 72)
One serious flaw with having an asymmetric traffic circle is that we have snow covering the road for a good portion of the year. Imagine now you could actually have someone who knows what they are doing (has read their Drivers Handbook) and can now cause an accident without doing anything wrong because the traffic circle paint is inconsistent. On top of that we have a circle where the ruleset for navigating the circle change depending on where you enter it. And forced lane changes while navigating the roundabout? The original asphalt and meridian layout was not designed for this. Such bad design and I would argue more dangerous than no lines. I could go on about why the layout of the asphalt doesn't fit the system that is put there but I'm not the Traffic Design Engineer. There is plenty of research and design guidelines to be found after a quick search on the internet.
You say you can "understand the logic behind their design." I wish I could come up with any logical reason for doing things this way but it's overwhelmingly absurd.
I can't make the meeting tonight but I'm sure there will be enough intelligent people there to fix this thing. It's quite clear from these posts that the majority of people who use the circle could figure out the proper design.
Spring of 2013 to paint some new lines? A community association meeting to discuss a traffic circle? That seems like a ridiculous amount of time to monitor this terrible idea and an uneccessary waste of a Wednesday night. As a person who uses this traffic circle daily as well as has used traffic circles in other cities daily, this is the worst design i have ever seen. Why over complicate something so simple? and why will it take SIX months minimum to fix a mistake. Let's prove that the city wheels can move at a reasonable pace and get this fixed ASAP.
ReplyDeleteIf safety is a concern I can understand why the traffic engineers may have been assigned this project. I trust that the data collected from the studies is extensive and correct. I also don't doubt that the new design has the potential to increase the efficiency of the circle. However, there is one major flaw when running computer simulations. Computers will not be driving the circle, people will.
ReplyDeleteThere was a gentleman at the meeting who said KIS (keep it simple). This is how traffic laws should be.
Apparently there is a larger problem that the province needs to know about, if it is true that the province is revising the standards of creating Roundabouts. However, for me (us), this is the first battle. Let's not discredit all the hard work our drivers educators have provided in the past on the education of properly navigating a roundabout.
And if we do, let's see the government pay for the reeducation of our drivers as it seemed like we needed two traffic engineers, a community association member, and a city alderman to explain the change to a room of previously educated drivers.
Whereas it took a drawing from a 5 year old and one sentence to accurately and effectively explain the old rules.
Mr. Keating, you are our voice and action. I understand that you may have seen this as the best solution when the project passed your desk and I don't blame you for accepting it. However, this is the voice of your people and I hope you receive sufficient support/concern over this issue to properly rectify it in a timely fashion.